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Grim Day In London

 
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Mats
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul, 2005 1:17 pm    Post subject: Grim Day In London Reply with quote

The early reports of the attacks in London didn't sound as horrible as the ones now coming in (37 dead, 700 injured). The desired effect of de-railing the G8 seems to have been achieved, with Blair having to leave Scotland. It remains to be seen if the British support of the war in Iraq will falter as a result of this horrific attack.
David, tell us you weren't in London today.


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David
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jul, 2005 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The terrorists have failed. The G8 was not cancelled. Tony Blair left to go to London but they all agreed that the summit would continue. The British commitment to the people of Iraq will not waver. These sort of attacks have the complete opposite effect from what the extremists want. Our resolve is strengthened. Our spirit CANNOT be broken.
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CAM
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Jul, 2005 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
The terrorists have failed. The G8 was not cancelled. Tony Blair left to go to London but they all agreed that the summit would continue. The British commitment to the people of Iraq will not waver. These sort of attacks have the complete opposite effect from what the extremists want. Our resolve is strengthened. Our spirit CANNOT be broken.


Many thanks for getting in touch with us, David! I've been following the news carefully and have been involved with an organization I'm part of in creation of a press release to denounce the attacks.


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llizard (aka ejm)
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PostPosted: Sun 10 Jul, 2005 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I keep hoping to hear that prominent Muslim leaders will also denounce the attacks and the terrorists. Their actions should result in excommunication.

Glad to hear you are safe and well, David.


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CAM
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PostPosted: Sun 10 Jul, 2005 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

llizard wrote:
I keep hoping to hear that prominent Muslim leaders will also denounce the attacks and the terrorists. Their actions should result in excommunication.

Glad to hear you are safe and well, David.


I'm pleased to say that many Muslim groups in UK, Canada, India, and other places have been in the news deploring and denouncing the violence.

The son of a friend of ours has survived the bombing attack -- was fortunately two cars away from the main explosions and escaped without a scratch. He and his family are reported to be pretty tired but want to get on with life. David, I hope all your family, friends and colleagues are safe.


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DataRyder
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul, 2005 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

llizard wrote:
I keep hoping to hear that prominent Muslim leaders will also denounce the attacks and the terrorists.

CAM wrote:
I'm pleased to say that many Muslim groups in UK, Canada, India, and other places have been in the news deploring and denouncing the violence.


In the last few days I've also been aware that individuals in the Muslim community have come forward to deplore and denounce the violence. But mostly it's pretty quiet. And this disturbs me.

Atrocities committed in the name of Islam are almost a daily occurrence and this is the key, 'In the name of Islam'. We're all aware of the reports of kidnappings and beheadings of innocent civilians in Iraq and of suicide bombings in Israel. Incidents like September 11, bombs on trains in Spain and now London horrify us all. Yet through all of this, here in Toronto and around the world the muslim community as a whole remains largely silent.

If atrocities of this magnitude were being perpetrated in the name of Christianity, condemnation in the Christian world would be massive. When George Bush sent troops into Iraq the outcry was overwhelming. Millions in the Middle East, Canada, the US and around the world took to the streets in protest. On one afternoon alone a million people protested in London's Trafalgar Square. Many get active and openly express outrage. Yet when extremists fly planes into building and blow up innocent people 'in the name of Islam' where's the Muslim community's overwhelming reaction? Where's the overwhelming outrage?

Here in Toronto there's lots of talk about how we can't be complacent because it's just a matter of time before we begin to see terrorist incidents of our own. There's a call to beef up security, be more vigilant, add a greater police presence and many people agree. But this is just a band-aide solution.

It will largely be the responsibility of the Muslim community to put a stop to this insanity. For any great change to take place, it's going to take the Islamic community to organize and take to the streets in large numbers to expressed their disgust at what's being done in the name of their religion. If in every city, and in every country Muslims expressed their anger at what's being perpetrated in the name of Islam, if they made it clear in no uncertain terms that terrorists are not heroes and that terrorism is not Jihad, then there would be a change. It would take years, I admit. Maybe even a generation but slowly, bit by bit there would be a change in thinking.

I realize a global movement of this magnitude is unrealistic, even naive. But surely in a country like Canada; here where every citizen has the freedom and the ability to express themselves without fear of repercussion why is the Muslim community largely silent? Where's the mass outrage? The mass condemnation? Where are they?

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David
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul, 2005 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excerpts from various blogs:
-------
BBC Parliament internal email: NEWSFLASH:
There has been a widespread outbreak of grumbling and tutting today in London, along with a large number of people going home instead of to work, with a certain amount of guilty pleasure.
Sorry, bad guys. We've been bombed before, and we just adjust our day to account for it. This is London calling.
-------
"Why didn't you go to the party?"
"Cause London was blown up"
"Oh... yeah."
-------
It was just announced that the queen is deeply shocked and that it has been decided that the Congestion charge (a toll to use a car in London) will not be in place today - how I love the British.
-------
"I'd like to congratulate today's terrorists for achieving nothing but instilling a fierce patriotism back into the British Isles, creating a rather wide-spread rash of Blitz Spirit, and giving me a day off work.
I'm a bit pissed off that you nearly blew up some of my friends, but at the end of the day - you failed. We're still here, we're not scared of you."
-------
The people of London have responded to all this exactly the way I always imagined we would; with humour, strength and defiance. I've never been more proud to be British, and never more proud to be a Londoner. Pip pip.
-------
During the second statement by Blair, he was surrounded by the various heads of state and representatives to the G-8 gathering. And there stood ol' W, with the usual confused look on this face - likely wondering who had his copy of "My Pet Goat".
-------
God I love the British...
Nobody does pissed off disdain like 'em...
This *rules*
--------
When the bombs went off in the tubes everyone just went out and huffed because it was inconvenient. Within minutes people were making jokes about, "I knew the french were bad losers, but.."
It's the Great British spirit of, "Oh well, fuck it, shall we go the pub?"
Were people running around like chickens with their heads cut off? No. People were concerned and trying to help or thinking of a solution. Or even, "Great, how do I get to work NOW?"
We've had a tragedy and it's awful, but we personally can't do anything about it.
Fancy a pint?
Yeah, alright.
We rock, plain and simple.
----------
"It's hard to panic the British. They've dealt with the Blitz, the IRA, the Silurians, the Zarbi, the Daleks, the Cybermen..."
----------
To quote an old Londoner who lived through the blitz and got caught up in the Canary Wharf explosion: "I've been blown up by a better class of bastard than this!"
----------
"We took on the Romans, the Saxons, the Danes, the French, William Wallace, the Black Plague, the Roundheads, the Great Fire, Napoleon, the Nazis, and the Blitz, and we're still here. You terrorists are bloody amateurs."
----------
"They're asking everyone to stay within the office."
"Oh. What about lunch?"
"Er..."
"We can go out for lunch, right?"
"No!"
"Well are you ordering pizza or something?"
----------
"They did their worst, and they managed to disrupt our transport network and get fatalities in the low double figures. That happens on a fairly regular basis anyway, you twits. What's your next trick - a fiendish weather control device which makes it rain on a bank holiday weekend?"
----------
People have been trying to blow up bits of London for decades. Centuries, in fact. This one's nothing special. It's no different to any of the others. London's reaction to it is typified by my friend Jeff, who was actually *running* to catch the bus that was blown up.
"I went to Euston: went to the tube and there was a loud bang. and we were sent out! Then we were sent out of the station so I half ran to Tavistock Place to catch a bus to Victoria. And then it went bang, so I thought 'bugger that'."
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CAM
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul, 2005 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you that people need to start getting really active to denounce violence that is perpetrated in the name of religion and start speaking up against violent attitudes and actions. I'd apply this to all religious groups.

For several pages of denunciations by Muslim leaders from all over the world, including Hamas, see:

http://news.google.ca/news?hl=en&ned=ca&ie=UTF-8&q=muslim+leaders+denounce&btnG=Search+News including on Al Jazeerah: http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=9140

And see the comments of a big conference of Islamic religious leaders: http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=8831


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DataRyder
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Jul, 2005 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:

[...] And there stood ol' W, with the usual confused look on this face - [...]

That confused look....LOL

I also love the "empty wave". It's something he does whenever he gets off an airplane. He's done it so often that it's very well rehearsed. It works like this:

1) First he locates the news cameras and the press. Then...

2) Off in the distance, he locates a crowd of well wishers. It's a crowd that's usually located just beyond the news cameras. Then...

3) He smiles and gives them a slightly officious, friendly half wave/half salute.

***But, what gets me every time? I don't think there's really a crowd there at all. I think it's just an empty wave by a guy in an empty suit.***

DataRyder


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DataRyder
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Jul, 2005 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CAM wrote:

For several pages of denunciations by Muslim leaders from all over the world, including Hamas, see:

http://news.google.ca/news?hl=en&ned=ca&ie=UTF-8&q=muslim+leaders+denounce&btnG=Search+News including on Al Jazeerah: http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=9140

And see the comments of a big conference of Islamic religious leaders: http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=8831


Thanks CAM. Your links make for interesting reading.

Also a good story here.
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2005/751/op4.htm

I'll quote a pargraph and I have to agree. They are, after all, the guardians of their own religion.
Quote:
Terror in the name of Islam is being committed not only in London, Madrid and New York, but also in Egypt, Morocco and Saudi Arabia. Terror is giving a bad name to otherwise legitimate resistance in Iraq and Palestine. Such terror is our own problem first and foremost. It is not up to the West to correct erroneous Islamic concepts or put back reason into devious Muslim minds. This is something we should do ourselves.


DataRyder


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CAM
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul, 2005 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DataRyder wrote:


I'll quote a pargraph and I have to agree. They are, after all, the guardians of their own religion.
Quote:
Terror in the name of Islam is being committed not only in London, Madrid and New York, but also in Egypt, Morocco and Saudi Arabia. Terror is giving a bad name to otherwise legitimate resistance in Iraq and Palestine. Such terror is our own problem first and foremost. It is not up to the West to correct erroneous Islamic concepts or put back reason into devious Muslim minds. This is something we should do ourselves.


DataRyder


Yes, I agree. And I also think it's a good idea to support any Muslim colleagues and friends who are working their buns off to do just that.


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David
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul, 2005 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DataRyder wrote:


I'll quote a pargraph and I have to agree. They are, after all, the guardians of their own religion.
Quote:
Terror in the name of Islam is being committed not only in London, Madrid and New York, but also in Egypt, Morocco and Saudi Arabia. Terror is giving a bad name to otherwise legitimate resistance in Iraq and Palestine. Such terror is our own problem first and foremost. It is not up to the West to correct erroneous Islamic concepts or put back reason into devious Muslim minds. This is something we should do ourselves.


DataRyder

"Legimate resistance in Iraq"? 'That sounds very strange. Iraq has a democratically elected government. 'Resistance' has not place in a democracy.
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Lawless in Lotusland
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul, 2005 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
DataRyder wrote:


Quote:
Terror in the name of Islam is being committed not only in London, Madrid and New York, but also in Egypt, Morocco and Saudi Arabia. Terror is giving a bad name to otherwise legitimate resistance in Iraq and Palestine. Such terror is our own problem first and foremost. It is not up to the West to correct erroneous Islamic concepts or put back reason into devious Muslim minds. This is something we should do ourselves.


DataRyder

"Legimate resistance in Iraq"? 'That sounds very strange. Iraq has a democratically elected government. 'Resistance' has not place in a democracy.



Yes, the term "legitimate resistance" is a bit vague, isn't it? Thank you for pointing this out. I hadn't considered its meaning until you mentioned it. "Legitimate resistance" could run the gamut from legitimate protest of government policies (perfectly legitimate in a democracy) to "freedom fighter" wars, which are legitimate or illegitimate in the political eyes of the beholder.

Nevertheless, regardless of this Egyptian author's meaning of "legitimate resistance" (and regardless of whether there can be "legitimate resistance" in Iraq), he is very clear to draw the line firmly at attacks against civilians, saying that such attacks are not legitimate and not countenanced by Islam. By the way, civil wars are also subject to the constraints of the Fourth Geneva Convention which forbids attacks against civilians. Some (well, a few) civil war movements and insurgencies do try to abide by the Geneva Coventions (staying with military targets) because they want to portray themselves as "legitimate" even if no one else thinks so.

I did a quick google search concerning how the insurgency in Iraq is being perceived. Despite the recognition of the elected Iraq government by the UN, there are some editorials from various parts of the world that portray the Iraq resistance as "freedom fighters" resisting foreign occupation. I'm not saying I agree with that view point -- just point out that there are different viewpoints.

What is encouraging about even this Egyptian editorial is that regardless of whether the Iraq resistance is characterized as legitimate or illegimate, the groundswell of opinion from Muslim leaders is that deliberate attacks on civilians are never countenanced. Civilian attacks are considered completely illegimate by any standards, Islamic or otherwise. Attacks on civilians are atrocities by any civilized standard. They are mass murders from a domestic point of view, and they are also war crimes if they are part of any "legitimate" or "illegitimate" "war."


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